What if one person was two superheroes? ALTER EGO will be the bombastic story of the smiling champion WHIZ-BANG, the prowling vigilante THE BLACK DOG, and the man behind both of their masks. This weekly newsletter is a behind-the-scenes look at the making of Alter Ego, by Nate Cosby, Jacob Edgar, Kike J. Diaz & Rus Wooton. Go to this link to sign up for updates on when ALTER EGO will be available!
PART V: Chris Eliopoulos Has A Spinner Rack
Nate here! How we doin’?
This week’s newsletter has a long (too long?) conversation with my friend and collaborator Chris Eliopoulos, which ALL process fans will want to check out. Chris is THE font of knowledge for all aspects of creating comics. What does this have to do with Alter Ego? You’re gonna wanna read all the way to the end to find out…
Chris Eliopoulos is one of the most accomplished creators in all of modern comics. He’s lettered some of the biggest and/or most critically acclaimed titles of all time, including the original X-Force, the original Deadpool, Ultimate Spider-Man, The Ultimates, Civil War, Kick-Ass, The Dark Tower, World War Hulk, Star Wars, Hawkeye (the Aja one), and most importantly, Barbie.
On top of that, he’s an astounding designer. He created the Venom and Weapon X logos.
On top of that, he’s an incredibly successful artist, illustrating the Ordinary People Change The World series of books that you have definitely seen if you’ve ever walked through an airport bookstore.
On top of that, he’s a great writer, with credits such as Franklin Richards: Son Of A Genius, Lockjaw & The Pet Avengers, and his creator-owned Cosmic Commandos, Monster Mayhem and The Yawns Are Coming!
On top of that, he and I co-created Cow Boy, which got nominated for awards and stuff.
On top of that, he’s one of my best friends, even though I refuse to learn his children’s names. Here’s our chat.
NATE: Can we start with Astonishing X-Men?
CHRIS: You can start wherever you want. I’ve forgotten everything anyway.
NATE: The X-Men have always been boring to me. The one X-book I had time for was the original Astonishing that you lettered, because it didn’t feel like an X-book to me. It actually pulled itself out of the continuity mud and told a fun story, and used the mutant metaphor in an interesting way. The two particular bits I loved were…
Cyclops being like “Hey instead of scaring people and staring directly into our own navels, maybe it’d be fun if we were superheroes?”
Wolverine barely saying anything, barely doing anything. He shows up, kills things, drinks beer. Which is exactly and only what Wolverine should do.
Did you think you were part of something special on that series?
CHRIS: Totally felt special. There have been a few books where right at the start I knew it would be special. Impulse, Hawkeye, and Astonishing. They all felt like everyone was firing on all cylinders right on page one.
My favorite moment of the series is after Peter and Kitty bump uglies, Wolverine walks in the kitchen the next morning and can smell it on them and says simply, “‘bout time.” That’s him in a nutshell. He should be quiet and calm and then explode on rare occasions.
I was first introduced to the X-Men and comics from a friend in high school. He showed me the Claremont/Byrne issues and I loved them. The art was great and Wolverine was not that super popular, but he was like how he was in Astonishing. You knew little about him and he seemed dangerous. I started reading the JR Jr. issues that were coming out and loved his work and when I first took on Uncanny, John came back. It was kinda like living that childhood dream.
I have had a lot of that in my career.
NATE: Most people don’t realize how important and creative the lettering process can be. Sometimes you have a couple weeks to work on a book, sometimes you have an hour. As a unique example, could you explain your lettering process for Aja’s issues of Hawkeye?
CHRIS: Boy, that was a unique situation. Matt (Fraction) would plot out the book traditionally, then drop in dialogue that would eventually get tweaked or changed. The thing was, it was a traditional script. He’d indicate 5 panels, then David Aja would break the page up into these unique multi panel pages with all kinds of info. Then Matt would come back and fix up the script to match the art. It was a real lesson in watching creators build on each other and making something really unique. David would indicate where he wanted the lettering going so far as to do full-on balloon layouts with the text. I’d follow them closely and, hopefully, improve them a bit.
I will say, though, that most of the credit–even the lettering goes to David. The Lucky issue is all him, the deaf issue is all him. We even decided that he would hand-letter the dialogue to sort of give it this rough feel to it, to indicate that Clint was not hearing so well. For me, on that book, it was all mostly just getting out of their way.
NATE: I think my working with you has informed a lot of how I edit and write, and how much I appreciate the collaborative nature of comics. Because you figure out what you can bring to a project, whether you’re lettering, coloring, drawing, writing, or doing everything. The way you do your job is so workmanlike and professional, and ego-free, yet the finished product couldn’t be done by somebody without an inherently confident, creative, collaborative approach.
CHRIS: My career has been unique. I feel like I’ve been earning degrees in storytelling and each time I graduate, I move up. I started in the Marvel bullpen doing paste-up where I learned about being a professional from the people who were quietly professional. They showed me the right way to work, treat people, and making yourself useful. It all came without ego, and I would see people who didn’t act professionally and how quickly they’d be out of the business.
Then I moved up to lettering and knew I wasn’t the star of the book, but there were writers, pencilers, inkers, and editors who would compliment me on a job well-done. I learned there that we were part of a team and that together we could do something good without someone hogging the spotlight. Believe me, I’ve worked with those types as well and they taught me even more in how I didn’t want to be.
But then I gained confidence and took chances by pitching ideas and stepping out of my type-casting. That was another thing that keeps you humble–I would say I was a cartoonist, but people only thought of me as a letterer. I knew I could do more, but I needed to prove myself. And I’d prove myself by doing a good job and that changed people’s minds.
So, the short answer is I learned to treat people and the job well on the way up because the people behind you may be your boss later on.
NATE: Do you still like superheroes?
CHRIS: Yeah. I like superheroes. I’m just done with the soap opera, never-ending stories that come with monthly comics. I like a self-contained story better where we have a beginning, middle and end. I’m done with continuity and having to know so much backstory just to enjoy a story.
When I was a kid, my father would take my sister and I to Rocklin’s, a candy/magazine store, every week and we could pick out one thing to get. My sister would always get a candy bar that was done before we left the store. I would get a comic book. I have them on a spinner rack in my office right now. So, I love them, but I’m not a big reader of them these days.
NATE: You and I have groused plenty about how continuity seems to choke all the accessibility and “fun” out of modern superhero comics. Maybe it’s just because I’ve not really read any new superhero comics in a while, but the continuity thing doesn’t hit me the same way anymore, because I feel no obligation to do the “connect-the-dots” style of reading.
What’s your favorite single superhero issue?
CHRIS: My favorite single issue of a comic might be Fantastic Four #285.
It’s a story about a boy who idolizes the Human Torch and gets made fun of in school.
His home life isn’t much better as his parents have no time for him. He gets ahold of some rocket fuel and attempts to turn himself into the Human Torch and sets himself on fire. The story is told retroactively and Johnny is devastated that someone would do that to themselves in his name. But, and here’s a little continuity nonsense, the Beyonder shows Johnny that the boy had nothing else in his life but the love of the Human Torch and that gave it meaning.
It’s a parable, I think, for loving the things you love and also the responsibility of those who are admired.
NATE: Who’s your favorite superhero?
My favorite hero is Superman. Not just the powers he has, but what he stands for. He has all these powers and tries to help all people. He gives and gives and gives. I look at Batman and think of how selfish he is. He has all this money that he could use to systemically make changes to lessen crime, to better Gotham, but instead, he buys toys and beats up bad guys one by one.
Some of my other top ones are weird. I love the Flash because the first comic I ever got was the Flash. I love the Atom because being short, I always admired the big things a little guy could do which also goes for Wolverine and Puck. If I was ever able to, I’d love to do a Wolverine/Puck period piece limited series.
NATE: You’ve worked on tens of thousands of superhero comics. And you’ve written dozens of superhero comics (many of which I edited).
Alter Ego’s gonna be the first time I’ve really written a superhero comic. You know my storytelling sensibilities, my strengths and weaknesses, probably more than anyone. What advice can you give me? What should I do, and avoid?
CHRIS: First off, what I’ll say is there is no right way to write superhero comics. One of the great things about this medium of comics is that you can tell these stories in so many different ways. And being different is a plus. So, I’ll say embrace the differences of how you tell a superhero story than what’s come before.
The fun of superhero comics is that anything can happen and you tend to keep things grounded. Make sure to make every page exciting. Even as he’s feeding the dogs, your hero should be doing something fantastic so he’s not like everyone else in the world. Have him feeding the dogs while lifting the couch to grab a stray pellet of dog food, etc. Try not to dwell on the mundane.
One of the greatest lessons of comic book writing I received was sitting with Erik Larsen and John Romita at a luncheon somewhere. They discussed cliffhangers. The one format of superhero comics that is unique and something you might want to do more of is the art of the cliffhanger. The last panel on every page should make the reader want to turn the page, the last page in every comic should make the reader want to read the next book. Even if the thing on a page is the phone ringing–something to make the reader interested in what’s next. Never resolve something on the final panel of a page.
Finally, fewer 9 panel pages. It makes your artist want to kill you.
NATE: You gotta take the panel count thing up with Jacob. He’s the weirdo that wants 9-12 panel pages. We’re both embracing our inner Darwyn Cooke with some of these sequences.
You’re right about embracing the “fun” aspect, where more things need to be happening than just talking, or doing mundane things. And I solemnly swear I won’t have ANY scenes that feature superheroes sitting at a conference table.
Finally, and speaking of asking artists to draw too much, you’re doing an Alter Ego cover. My side of the process followed our usual operation: I came to you with an idea, you moaned that it was too hard, then you drew something better than I could have imagined. Tell the people how you did it.
CHRIS: It’s that old saying, “I like to have written, I just hate writing.” I moan and groan because you will ask for something and I can see it in my head and my compulsive nature tends to want to improve on it. I know it’ll be a ton more work, but that’s the thing. In the end I’m glad to have done it. And I’ll try to explain why.
I recently drew a promotional piece–not big. It’ll end up being a 3 inch button. My wife walked in, looked at it and said, “Man, you’ve gotten so good. Do you know that?” The thing is…I don’t. I always want to get better, do better, be better, but I always feel like I keep banging up against the wall of my level of talent. It’s a grind. I finish a piece and step back, look at it and cringe because I can see how I could have made it better but missed it or didn’t draw something as well as I saw in my head. I never see myself getting better, I always see myself falling short.
The moaning comes from the pain I know I’ll have about the work and the results. I’ve come to terms with the fact that I’ll never be as good as I want to be, but I’m gonna keep slamming against that talent level and make it go higher. So, that’s why I’m glad when something is done–I can take what I’ve learned doing that piece and improve the next one. But it’s all painful.
The pain on this cover is this: You handed me a couple of images of multiple images of a character doing things, almost like a side-scrolling video game or animation.
NATE: I sent you these…
CHRIS: You said to have him fly in the top floor window, take off the one costume, brush his teeth, feed his dogs, put on the other costume, jump on a motorcycle and drive away.
The first thing I had to do was lay out a cross section of a house, but it can’t be too realistic, but I wouldn’t be able to fit everything on that tall but not wide space. I had to make sure it followed what was in the book to a certain degree and notice in the interior pages, his space was a little messy, so I did that. Then I added the figures.
Originally, I had him flying in through the gable on the right, but you felt it didn’t read right, so I changed it so he was flying in from the left, then dropping into the attic through that window.
NATE: It read great, it’s just that at the top, it kinda looked like he was hopping down off of a chair. I asked you to add another figure in the sky, seeing him leaping down into that window. Wanted it to be super-clear that he was coming in from the outside.
CHRIS: Then I had to figure out when he changed his clothes, when he brushed his teeth and when he fed the dogs, all while trying to lead the reader through the page. Some of it was hard because he goes into the bathroom, then changes his pants on the right, then goes down the stairs.
It’s not exactly a streamline, but I think it reads well enough.
The fun part for me is drawing the character as a kid. It’s natural for me, but must be confusing for everyone else.
NATE: Well, Jacob and I appreciate how fantastic the cover turned out, and can’t wait to see how Kike colors it. Thanks for taking the time to do it, and for this long-ass conversation. Go back to drawing while listening to the Star Wars soundtrack.
CHRIS: Thanks, bud. See you at the marathon in a couple weeks.